The Sundering of the Community - UB Anet's Double-Edged Sword

[unienaule]

Originally Posted by AuraofMana

If you don't like it, don't use it. As simple as that.
Here's a comparison:

55 - Spam a few skills, stay alive, win.
Ursan - Spam a few skills, stay alive, win.

Sure, 55 is a bit more dangerous, but look how fast you farm a fat mob. I don't see anyone complaining about 55 being too easy.

Use as many 55s as you want and clear uw, or fow, or doa, or urgoz, or the deep. Oh wait, you can't. Strawman arguments sure are fun.

[zwei2stein]

Originally Posted by AuraofMana

Sure, 55 is a bit more dangerous, but look how fast you farm a fat mob. I don't see anyone complaining about 55 being too easy.

Because 55 is not immune to shutdown? Because playing 55 anywhere outside farming areas takes assload of skill /there was this guy who managed to 55 enchant removal and heavy degen mobs in prophecies era, i don't recall his achievements to be duplicated, anyone killing mob of three stone summit mesmers back up by monk and ranger with proph only skills should know./

Because 55hp is not really as strong as it seems, make mistake and you are dead. make mistake with ursan and you can afford to make dozen more before it begins to matter.

55 does not break game because power it gives is limited to few areas, its not ultimate pwn-it-all like ursan is. Farm builds can be powerful, but they are usually fragile in one way or another which makes then limited to few certain spots which lack counters. Take then out of their context and they are pathetic.

[manitoba1073]

Originally Posted by unienaule

Use as many 55s as you want and clear uw, or fow, or doa, or urgoz, or the deep. Oh wait, you can't. Strawman arguments sure are fun.

You mean like this.



Only need 1 55 monk. rest is up to whatever you wanna bring.


Also I was only for the last 2 days funny how noone whispered me IGN to prove how UBER UB was. Must be alot of cowards who are scared of lvl 14 - lvl 18's. Oh thats right. Its when you have 6 of them and using consumables thats when its overpowered.

BTW I'm still waiting anytime I'm on.

[Shaz]

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Also I was only for the last 2 days funny how noone whispered me IGN to prove how UBER UB was. Must be alot of cowards who are scared of lvl 14 - lvl 18's. Oh thats right. Its when you have 6 of them and using consumables thats when its overpowered.

LOL, no need for name calling, you crack me up, thanks for the laugh . Didn't we already been over this? Anyhow, read the above poster again, here it is...

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Farm builds can be powerful, but they are usually fragile in one way or another which makes then limited to few certain spots which lack counters. Take then out of their context and they are pathetic.

Just because you can solo stuffs with a skill, does not make it overpowered, for example VwK. So that really doesn't prove anything to solo anything, therefore your point that UB is not overpowered because you can't solo stuffs is a moot. Anyone with half a brain can see that this skill is overpowered. You can say that you like the skill and don't want it to be nerf but don't say that it's not overpowered.

[arsie]

I see two purposes for PvE skills.

1) To compensate PvE players for all those skills that were nerfed due primarily to their PvP usage.

2) To bridge the gap between good players and weak players. There isn't really any point in widening that gap.

The only way I can see to placate both groups is for there to be a seperate reward system.

A "better" drop table for players who do not use any PvE skill (consumables as well?), maybe even a title: Grognard. Anet has farming code that can tell how often you've farmed a place, surely they can tell whether you're using PvE skills on your bar.

That way, good players who do not need PvE skills are rewarded for their skill, while weak players can experience and gain access to content (they incidentally paid for) they could not without those skills.

[strcpy]

I've been known to argue with a stump from time to time so I generally decide to ignore threads if I see it going there. In order to keep myself from going where I feel we shouldn't (no need to see who's e-peen is larger, I think that was established with the person I was arguing with), this was the only type of post I will respond too and then only because an insult I didn't intend was taken.

Originally Posted by knoll

We know their are great players outside of SMS, we have played with them.

I knew I would get this as it could be read as bashing SMS and I didn't intend that, the part you are responding too here is in response to only that one person. I don't think SMS (even the ones I actually accused of being selfish) think this. None of that guild - or at least none that have it in their profile - has made that allusion.

DoA is an ELITE zone and is meant to be played by people who are good and who know what they are doing and are not mindless and just press 1 all day.

This is where we differ. I don't think that DoA is such a thing, I don't think that making it so that only those people can play it is a good long term strategy.

I do not know how Anet sees it - they seem to be somewhere in between. No nerfs to UB (yet - who knows later on) yet no H/H (my mode of play). Though over all the no H/H thing is probably an effort to promote human groups instead of promoting elite groups. Removing the ability to H/H the area has caused enough people to leave, making them have to create one of the cookie cutter builds/classes is even worse if their chosen class isn't one of the trinity.

On a final note SMS members are not the only people posting in this thread. You just seem to point us out b/c we come and numbers and voice our opinions like you are posting yours.

If pointed out I would also notice the opposite - if most of the defenders were from a single guild that relied on UB to farm an elite area. I'm a H/H player and I'm not terribly interested in any items from there (I can more than afford any that I want anyway) - I don't have a dog in the fight. I've used UB once and decided I prefer other skill sets - if it gets nerfed I will never notice it. In fact, you will note that I said high Norn title UB needs toned down - I just do not think that the low to middle end needs adjustment (or at least needs VERY little). I have no issue with you posting your opinion any more than you should have issue with me posting mine. After all, the main use of *any* forum is Navel Gazing by the members.

However, the vast majority of complaints are from one guild. Even the vast majority of complaints outside of that guild are along the lines that it allows less elite players to complete the Elite areas - which from all I have read is the *intent* of the PvE skills. This argument is much like the loot scaling argument - hate it or love it the intent was that high end farmers were brought down to near the level of a casual player using full groups. I just can not see any bad long term overall game consequences with UB letting less "elite" players play a large part of the game. All the long term consequences listed so far are that a very small fraction of the game base will be unhappy and this will, somehow, make people who do not know them and are unable to play with them unhappy.

Complaining that it does what Anet says they wanted doesn't help - if it becomes a required skill in that you have trouble getting into a group without then I would expect a nerf (variety being one of the things the look for) and, so far, I do not see it as being a required skill. In fact, I still see more non-UB groups forming. If it is simply that non-elite players or non-wanted characters can now do what elite players can then it is doing what they said they wanted PvE skills to do - you are better off *not* complaining about it.

Of course, you are free to reinforce to Anet that they did the right thing - it hasn't slowed the vast majority of the loot scale complainers down that they do just that and I do not expect this thread to be any different.

[Avarre]

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

You mean like this.



Only need 1 55 monk. rest is up to whatever you wanna bring.

We can see your party window, you know.

My view is and will remain here. If you disagree, you either rely on PvE skills or believe that you are entitled to rare items as a new player. Rare items were never meant to be openly available, max-statted weapons were meant to be openly available to keep equipment in balance. Rare skins were for those that were better players, or those who put in more time and effort.

Ursan is neither.

PvE skills are neither.

Remove them all.

[Faer]

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

You mean like this.

No, he means a 55, or 8 55's, or 12 55's, or a million 55's... Not a 55 and a full team of other builds. You can't possibly be stupid enough to not understand that.

[manitoba1073]

Originally Posted by Shaz

LOL, no need for name calling, you crack me up, thanks for the laugh . Didn't we already been over this? Anyhow, read the above poster again, here it is...



Just because you can solo stuffs with a skill, does not make it overpowered, for example VwK. So that really doesn't prove anything to solo anything, therefore your point that UB is not overpowered because you can't solo stuffs is a moot. Anyone with half a brain can see that this skill is overpowered. You can say that you like the skill and don't want it to be nerf but don't say that it's not overpowered.

Actually the point is you cant do it. And nope we havent gotten through it yet. The point is the skill itself isnt overpowered, until you use them in groups of 5-6 or more. Where as the vast majority will only be using it with 1 or 2 in a group.

Originally Posted by Avarre

We can see your party window, you know.

My view is and will remain here. If you disagree, you either rely on PvE skills or believe that you are entitled to rare items as a new player. Rare items were never meant to be openly available, max-statted weapons were meant to be openly available to keep equipment in balance. Rare skins were for those that were better players, or those who put in more time and effort.

Ursan is neither.

PvE skills are neither.

Remove them all.

Yeap you sure can. Still using the 55 to clear UW. I use it for alot of other places in groups to. You only said to use a 55 or however many to clear UW and other places. You didnt say which way they can be used. Theres only 1 spot in UW that wont work for 55.

It also depends on what definition of a rare skin you are talking about as there is numerous types. If you're saying torments we'll they still will be.

Yes I disagree with you, but not for the reason you think I'm disagreeing. Ofcourse as some of your supporters have pointed out anyone with a brain would have noticed that. It has absolutely nothing to do with rare skin acquisitions.

Originally Posted by Faer

No, he means a 55, or 8 55's, or 12 55's, or a million 55's... Not a 55 and a full team of other builds. You can't possibly be stupid enough to not understand that.

Funny thats not how it was said. Here you go just incase you not that smart yourself to read.

Originally Posted by unienaule

Use as many 55s as you want and clear uw, or fow, or doa, or urgoz, or the deep. Oh wait, you can't. Strawman arguments sure are fun.

[Faer]

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Funny thats not how it was said. Here you go just incase you not that smart yourself to read.

There is this concept of context I believe you are missing. In case you are not smart enough to understand that concept, then might I suggest you pay more attention in school?

[Shaz]

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Actually the point is you cant do it. And nope we havent gotten through it yet. The point is the skill itself isnt overpowered, until you use them in groups of 5-6 or more. Where as the vast majority will only be using it with 1 or 2 in a group.

So what if you can do it, what does that prove? Nothing, unless you are you trying to say that all solo builds out there are overpowered?

You obviously don't know anything about balance, so I don't think we'll be through with this anytime soon. I'm just going to stop here.

[sarcasm]Yea, because when you use one or two, the skill doesn't bypass all form of shutdown and do high armor ignoring damage[/sarcasm].

[RhanoctJocosa]

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Actually the point is you cant do it. And nope we havent gotten through it yet. The point is the skill itself isnt overpowered, until you use them in groups of 5-6 or more. Where as the vast majority will only be using it with 1 or 2 in a group.

Completely wrong. The vast majority of people are making use of numerous copies of UB in their build. And, anyway, even if by majority you mean the people we don't 'see': i.e. people h/hing dungeons and such, I assure you that, unless their class faces severe shutdown in the given area, they won't go UB.

Imo, severely nerf UB and the other 'stronger' PvE skills (Save Yourselves!, There's Nothing To Fear!) or even remove them. Being able to completely steamroll the elite PvE areas by mere button mashing is absurd.

[bungusmaximus]

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

Imo, severely nerf UB and the other 'stronger' PvE skills (Save Yourselves!, There's Nothing To Fear!) or even remove them. Being able to completely steamroll the elite PvE areas by mere button mashing is absurd.

Hmm I don't like the idea much of nerfing them to hell, I'd rather see PvE only skills where you actually have to build around. Some guy in the PvE forum made an all necro build using some PvE skills. I can hardly call that man a button mashing scrub. It would be fun if you could use PvE skills in creative builds instead of using them as I win buttons. They are just RETARDELY strong now while they should be just strong.

I wouldn't mind either when aNet would limit the use of PvE only skills. No bears in DoA, Urgoz, FoW and the like. That would keep the areas exclusive.

[RhanoctJocosa]

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Hmm I don't like the idea much of nerfing them to hell, I'd rather see PvE only skills where you actually have to build around. Some guy in the PvE forum made an all necro build using some PvE skills. I can hardly call that man a button mashing scrub. It would be fun if you could use PvE skills in creative builds instead of using them as I win buttons. They are just RETARDELY strong now while they should be just strong.

Fair point, but I was actually thinking of the Focused Anger Paragons with SY! and TNTF! + mad dps because they are Paragons. They make PvE elite areas a joke. The only other way to go is to nerf FA, but it's not deserving of one.

Heh.

[zwei2stein]

I am pretty sure that that 55 monk only tanked certain things and either stood back when other stuff was engaged or was simply SBed to avoid insta death because of interupt/degen/enchant removal as UW offers counters to that build in every area and they get more severe as you progress deeper.

Thats somewhat balanced approach: you make beginning easy, but become burden on team later on.

[bungusmaximus]

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

Fair point, but I was actually thinking of the Focused Anger Paragons with SY! and TNTF! + mad dps because they are Paragons. They make PvE elite areas a joke. The only other way to go is to nerf FA, but it's not deserving of one.

Heh.

Those skills could most definitely use a hit, agreed wholeheartedly. I've been doing vanquishing with a dual paragon team. I don't even use the pve skills, but thanks to [wiki]"stand your ground!"[/wiki] they are already retardedly strong. Too bad so many people are still screaming murder over past paragon nerfs, wake up folks, paragons are very powerful PvE toons!

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

I am pretty sure that that 55 monk only tanked certain things and either stood back when other stuff was engaged or was simply SBed to avoid insta death because of interupt/degen/enchant removal as UW offers counters to that build in every area and they get more severe as you progress deeper.

Thats somewhat balanced approach: you make beginning easy, but become burden on team later on.

tbh I don't care much, all this 55 talk is way off topic. noone cares really (no flame intended here).

[Auron of Neon]

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

The point is the skill itself isnt overpowered, until you use them in groups of 5-6 or more.

If it's imbalanced when you run 6 copies, it's imbalanced. Look at Song of Restoration; same deal. On its own, the heal wasn't that powerful, but when people started running 4-5 of them... it got ridiculous. And guess what? It got nerfed. We have a precedence for nerfing super-imba-in-groups skills.

But either way, you're wrong. It's imbalanced when you run 1 copy. I out-DPS my nuking bar, any ranger bar I've ever thought of, my rit bar, my necro bar... etc with Ursan Blessing. It's a broken skill when it is singlehandedly more powerful than entire other builds.

Really now, AoE knockdown, shout-range weakness and unblockable, un-mitigatable ranged damage (that comes in two packets, mind you, so it gets through stuff like Prot Spirit and RoF quite effectively) that cannot be shut down by any form of melee hate IN THE ENTIRE GAME? If that isn't imba, then I'm Gaile Gray.

[Antheus]

I would suggest that by the time anyone has attained UB they have probably learned all they will about GW.

You'd be surprised at the quality and knowledge of ursanway DoA groups. And this isn't a compliment.

Ursanway works, and can be really fast. Yet ursanway PUGs fail at exactly the same spots as balanced groups. They also share all the other PUG problems - double/triple sup runes, incorrect weapons, no knowledge of mobs, poor/no target calling, oblivious of the areas they're in.

Ursanway is mostly zergway. Go in, if it works fine, usually the team will wipe.

Another thing many forget, ursanway is almost always coupled with consumables - ursans alone simply aren't enough for the difficult areas.

You have normal mode you noob scrubs, Anet added hm/fow/uw/deep/doa etc for us and you can't come here because you can't run our trinity builds

No.... Normal mode was added because there was so much outcry over difficulty of PvE.

Elite areas are there, because trinity builds don't work, and require considerably better understanding of the area. Still, the "noob scrubs" found some cookie cutter builds that have some success, and ran that.

Elite areas were designed as hard/challenging/overpowered so that people couldn't waltz in with a H/H and afk through the place like it's possible in any other mission.

[Free Wind]

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

You mean like this.



Only need 1 55 monk. rest is up to whatever you wanna bring.

And this picture is what one and a half years old? With this outdated build? You tell us you completed UW with it? You want to say you finished The Four Horsemen quest in UW as 55?

[Marcus Ferret]

As has been mentioned previously in this as well as other threads, some PvE skills (e.g. TNTF and Seed of Life) received a nerf when they were considered to be over-powered. Those skills however required a player to build around them as they provide only defense and heal, with no ability to cause damage to foes. UB on the other hand, causes armor-ignoring damage, knockdown+damage, and weakness+increased damage from allies within earshot. It is 5 skills in the guise of an elite which allows players to also add 7 other primary and secondary skills to their bar – this was clearly pointed out by Racthoh on his user talk page on the official wiki. (Cheers Racthoh)

Granted a player utilising UB without backup from other players will have difficulties soloing explorable area, but examine what happens in the Norn arena when I experimented last night:

Activate your Norn title rank, equip UB on the bar, change secondary to Ranger if necessary, equip Quickening Zephyr, pay Gellir Frostshield 100g to enter the Norn Fighting Tournament, drop QZ, activate UB, rush your opponent and spam 1, 2, 3. Time taken from first to last fight against Magni the Bison is less than 5 mins.

I equipped 2 skills, I repeat ‘equipped only 2 skills on my skillbar’, to beat a Norn whose Bear Form only gives him 250 additional health points + 25% more damage with each attack for 1 minute. Bison still has to use hammer skills and hit to cause the extra damage, while I could run around, keep him within my aggro bubble and press 1 whenever it recharged. None of the opponents in the arena stood a chance, and even Mhenlo whose Mending generally saves him from melee and physical damage was taken out before he could use the skill.

When ANet first introduced Hard Mode, it was to provide players who had built up their skill and knowledge of the game with an added challenge as well as to prolong support for their products. Each chapter that was introduced also included an elite area whereby those who had completed or reached a certain stage of the game could explore. I agree that everyone is entitled to play in Hard Mode as well as these elite areas.

Later, ANet decided to introduce additional PvE skills in order to assist players in completing Hard Mode missions and tasks as well as elite areas. These were fine as they still required players to study and build around such skills, in addition, those which were considered to be over-powered were fixed.

Recently, with the introduction of GW:EN, ANet introduced consumables in order that players will be able to balance the inequalities faced when confronting foes in Hard Mode. This is still fine, as it brings players level with such foes in a faster paced environment. However, in addition to consumables, ANet introduced the 3 elite blessings, one of which, when utilised with the support of consumables, allows players to breeze through Hard Mode and elite areas. This is not only fine but actually great as it allows new players as well as those chasing their titles before GW2 is launched to complete their HoMs speedily.

Now, UB allows players to complete what were once difficult task fast and effectively without much trouble except for grinding a title up to rank 10 – which incidentally, is also easy as UB can be used to explore dungeons and complete their Hard Mode Dungeon Master Guides. As the problem of time is solved for many players, what is there to do once the titles for a particular character have been achieved?

Create a new character? Why bother, as profession based primary and secondary skills just make gaming complicated. Plus, one has to cap elites, purchase tomes and all the necessary skills, while it is easier and faster to achieve level 20 and get UB by performing a single quest... Speed>Grind.

What about farming? For sure. Team UB tears through anything without too much problems so why not use it for farming elite missions where all the great drops are after everyone has maxed out their HoMs. Yes, even guilds and players who are against the use of UB can change their policy and use the skill. After all, it still remains a choice and if such teams can clear such areas in record time while running balanced skillbars, imagine what they could do with UB!<W00T>

“Only n00bs wouldn’t take advantage of an easier and faster method of farming elite missions!!!”

Wait, doesn’t over-farming have an adverse effect on the economy? Yes, but does it really matter? Everyone will be able to equip the same type of armor and weapons. Everyone will have the same titles in PvE. Everyone will have similar skillbars and gameplay. No longer will players worry about being rejected from a team. No longer will players have to wait while others sort out their skillbars.... Speed>Skill.

“What ‘Sundering of the Community’? Nonsense. Never heard of it. Never existed. The introduction of UB by ANet united the entire playing community.”

“Long Live the Bear!!!”

“Wait a minute? What about in-game challenges? What about discussions, tactics and strategy of dealing with different foes?”

“Don’t you get it? There’s no need for those anymore… Forget about working on wikis, forums, etc. Play dude, play… Why waste effort doing write-ups, price checks, builds, when you can have fun? UB makes it all easy!!! Learning to adapt and all such discussions concerning builds, strategy, etc are for PvPers only.”

Sorry, I got carried away in my imaginary perfect world there…

Seriously, if UB remains as it is, then there is only one other place that is currently still considered hard, although not untouchable or impossible.

Elite Mission Hard Mode

If Anet decides that UB does not need a nerf because it is a crucial skill that will be required by 100 players to kill a dragon with 100, 000 health points and the length of an explorable map in the upcoming GW2, thus all players need to practice, then provide perks that would draw experienced and hardcore players towards Elite Mission Hard Mode which are currently still difficult even with UB.

Reintroduction of non-inscribable requirement 8 weapons in Elite Mission Hard Mode. Make them rare but obtainable only in Hard Mode. Thus, no need to nerf UB. Players who are capable and experienced will find a way to clear such areas, whether with or without UB, but the end reward should be better for the skill and effort involved.

Lastly, as has been said before and I agree wholehearted, the final decision lies with ANet. My apologies if I may have offended anyone with my posts or comments. Peace and good game to all.

I shall now go and preach the good news of UB as it is definitely easier than explaining the technicalities of switching secondary professions and 8 skills on a bar. Seriously, I’m not being sarcastic. UB is great, everyone should run it, and if I kept such a secret to myself, I would be considered selfish. May also start a service to help people level up in their Norn title tracks - using UB of course.

You guys and gals out there do know that a thread such as this requires a light moment once in a while, don’t you? It’s impossible for players and consumers like us to hold all the cards because ANet is holding all the aces.

Take it easy everyone, relax and have fun. Like I said, there’s still Elite Mission Hard Mode, but please ANet, no more PvE skillz plz...